On August 22, more than a month later after Liangzhu ancient city was inscribed among the world’s heritage club, the reporter of In Zhejiang met LIU Bin, the discoverer of Liangzhu ancient city, at the 26th Beijing International Book Fair.

LIU Bin is currently serving as the director and a research fellow of Zhejiang Provincial Institute of Archaeology and a council member of the Archaeological Society of China. He discovered Liangzhu ancient city in 2007 and since then has chaired the archaeology of Liangzhu historical site. He has made profound attainments in pre-historic archaeology and jadeware research of the lower reaches of the Yangtze River. LIU Bin traveled to Beijing this time to attend the signing ceremony for the co-publishing of Liangzhu Civilization Series in multiple languages hosted by Zhejiang University Press. He himself is also an author of the series books.

After Liangzhu ancient city was unveiled to the public, LIU Bin appeared frequently in news media such as CCTV and himself was at the site to witness the announcement of Liangzhu ancient city as a world’s heritage by the World Heritage Commission. Yet in mentioning his busy state after the announcement, LIU Bin said peacefully, " The success for Liangzhu ancient city to be listed as a world’s heritage will make China and the world better understand Liangzhu. In fact no change has happened to our work." On more questions about the series books and Liangzhu, In Zhejiang had an exclusive interview with LIU Bin in Beijing.

On Liangzhu Civilization Series

In Zhejiang: Liangzhu Civilization Series will be released in multiple languages, what is your expectation of it?

LIU Bin: The international community knows little about the (civilization) of early China and their knowledge of ancient China mainly concentrates on bronze ware and earthenware. The international academic community argues that China was under a state of primitive (society) before Xia and Shang dynasties. The excavation of Liangzhu ancient city proves that China is as old as other major civilizations of the world. Though Liangzhu civilization only represents the lower reaches of the Yangtze River, I am convinced that Chinese civilization features a pattern of unity in diversity. In the archaeological description, the early China was like "a star-studded sky". There should be similar civilizations with Liangzhu civilization in the Yellow River Basin and the upper and middle reaches of the Yangtze River. Liangzhu has the best ground, as its archaeological findings in recent years have won the universal recognition of the global archaeology community. Liangzhu ancient city’s application for the identity of a world’s heritage has been comprehensively passed this year. In terms of cultural construction, we have heard of the ancient Egypt since our childhood, yet few Chinese people know their own civilization. Therefore, I think publicity and publishing are really important. Through the series books, we wish to make more countries of the world know and understand China.

In Zhejiang: You are the author of the third book "Ritual Implements and Kingship: Jadeware of Liangzhu Culture" of the series. Why do you choose to write about jadeware?

LIU Bin: (The compilation of the series) was organized by me, which was originally decided to consist of ten books, and afterwards included the book of Ma Li, a journalist. I divided the work among my co-workers for the ten books. I have studied Liangzhu jadeware since early ago, so I have probed deep into jadeware. Therefore, I have chosen the (subject) of jadeware which I am most familiar with.

In Zhejiang: You are introducing Liangzhu jadeware in the book, why did you start with the collection of Emperor Qianlong?

LIU Bin: This is just an opening remark. Less than two hundred years has passed since we began to really understand the objective world and the science of archaeology was born. And only a century has passed since archaeology was introduced into China. Before that, our knowledge of the world remained confined to mythologies. The Christian countries believe that the world was created by the God. Chinese people believe that the world was created by Fu Xi and Nv Wa. At that time, we did not know anything about the development history of humans. Among the collections of Emperor Qianlong, there were real Jade Cong. But he had determined the (birth time of Jade Cong) in Zhou and Han dynasties. During the more than a hundred years from the regency of Emperor Qianlong, we are in fact pushing the time of our civilization backward gradually and understanding Liangzhu ancient city gradually. Therefore, it is a very difficult process to understand a thing.

On the mysterious Liangzhu civilization

In Zhejiang: There were myths of Fu Xi and Nv Wa in ancient China. Why no legend of Liangzhu civilization has been passed down?

LIU Bin: I think there may be two reasons. First, China was in a legendary era before Xia Dynasty because China had no writing systems until Xia and Shang dynasties. The mature writing system formed in Shang Dynasty. At that time, the records of Xia Dynasty were observed. Our historical records are centered on the Central Plain culture, while other cultures in the surrounding have been neglected. Second, Liangzhu ancient city lies in a basin of Hangzhou. More than 4,000 years ago, a torrential flood inundated the basin of Hangzhou. So there were no people during the 1,000 years or so in between. The history was thus interrupted and no memory was preserved.

In Zhejiang: Around Liangzhu period there were many powerful regional civilizations in China. Why it seems that it was the Central Plains civilization that had finished the unification?

LIU Bin: In the ancient time when a regime was powerful, it would try to seize the control of the Central Plains. There were Five Hegemons during the Spring and Autumn Period. Why so? Viewed archaeologically, for seven or eight thousands, except for Xinjiang and Tibet, complex cultural exchanges had been observed in the entire eastern and southern territory of China as north as the Northeast and as south as Guangdong. The natural conditions of China were not quite favorable, hit by typhoons now and droughts then. When drought and coldness hit the north, the northerners would migrate to the south. At that time, a concept of unification had been formed. Therefore, the concept of “unity in diversity” could date back to seven or eight thousand years ago. In such a great territory, to control the lower reaches of the Yangtze River, it was sufficient to control Liangzhu. When you became stronger and wanted to control such a great territory from the Northeast to Guangdong, the best place would be the Central Plains. Therefore, the Central Plains became the core area. The rise and fall and changes of each culture and civilization are related to the political and economic environment.

In Zhejiang: Online comments say that Liangzhu civilization is deeply related with Shamanism Culture and even the Mayan Culture of America. How do you think of it?

LIU Bin: The civilization patterns of early humans remained the same. Therefore, be it Egypt, Maya or theocracy, all of them must share some commonness, and China is no exception. Shamanism was passed down afterwards. In the early period, all were religions in the pattern of Shamanism. But the religion of Liangzhu had difference from Shamanism, which was monotheism. This kind of unified faith boasted a stronger concentration force. Mayans were yellow race, which is correct. But they had not migrated there from Asia during Liangzhu period, but earlier, about ten thousand years ago.

In Zhejiang: What’s the image of Liangzhu king in your imagination? How was his temperament?

LIU Bin: He was similar to the Pharaoh of Egypt, or (a religious leader) of Tibet. He was called by the common folks as a deity.

In Zhejiang: If an actor were chosen to play the role of Liangzhu king, who you think will be the best candidate?

LIU Bin: I think it’s a difficult job. Other people have done some similar work in the past, but they were not the power I imagine.

In Zhejiang: Earlier some TV program invited Zhou Dongyu to play the role of high priestess of Liangzhu, who was also a daughter of the king. Do you think this arrangement fit the archaeological assumption?

LIU Bin: Not too reliable. Because viewed from the model of China, what kind of people could become a witch or wizard? According to ancient records, only those with special talent could be a witch or wizard. In the selection of a witch, it was improbable for the king to confer the (identity of a witch or wizard) to his own descendant.

On the archaeological work of Liangzhu

In Zhejiang: Foreign archaeological experts have paid several visits to Liangzhu. What are their comments on Liangzhu ancient city?

LIU Bin: Starting from the Shanghai World Archaeology Forum in 2013, archaeologists of about fifty or sixty countries have paid an inspection visit to Liangzhu. After their inspection, their most concentrated comment was that the project here was too vast, which must be a state. In their original impression, China was a primitive society before Xia and Shang dynasties and only had some jars and pots, which was far from reaching the height of ancient Egypt and ancient India. The ancient Egypt had pyramids, and the ancient India had metal. They were more developed than us in material, but we want to prove that the material development is not quite the same as the development of national pattern. The Yangtze River Delta is one time bigger than the Nile River Delta. So if Liangzhu was a state, it should have been much bigger than the ancient Egypt.

In Zhejiang: What’s the significance of Liangzhu ancient city’s being inscribed as a world heritage to the world’s archaeology?

LIU Bin: Originally early civilization had not been discovered in the Eastern Asia region, but found in the Western Asia and the Indus River Valley only. It was blank in the Eastern Asia four or five thousand years ago. Liangzhu historical site has become a world’s heritage, but it does not belong to China only. Experts commented, the Liangzhu historical site had made them realize that the lower reaches of Yangtze River of China was so developed five thousand years ago. Its culture was unique. Jadeware, religion, rice agriculture and urban planning were very developed. In the research of the world’s history, there was no distinction between you and me. Originally this area was blank, and now we have made some discovery in the blank area. Of course this will contribute to the world’s archaeology history.

In Zhejiang: There are still numerous mysteries of Liangzhu civilization to be solved. What you want most to probe into at the next step?

LIU Bin: Liangzhu still has a lot of mysterious to solve. However, archaeology cannot focus on an issue only, but should cover all areas. The sources of jadeware and jade mines, how was Liangzhu culture spread to the outside in the late stage, and why was it spread to Shaanbei...All these are questions to be solved. Now we face a common question on the (Liangzhu culture research) of Jiangsu, Zhejiang and Shanghai. If Liangzhu ancient city was a capital, how did it form a pattern of civilization with Shanghai and Suzhou? It is now very difficult to find direct evidences. Therefore, we will study the civilization pattern at the lower reaches of Yangtze River at the next step.

Executive Editor: Ke Ye

Translation: Ke Ye, Wenjin Chen